What Is CGS?

[beccy]

I'm moving the topic raised by my email to the list this morning onto here, and apologise for any clogging of the list I've been responsible for. Big thanks to Elly and Ximin for their computer wizziness!

The main question that seems to be at issue is: are we a solidarity/resistance movement, or do we actually want to effect change in the experiences Palestinians and Israelis have? I would argue that if we're a solidarity/resistance movement, it's not fair to focus solely on Gaza without addressing their 'oppressors', i.e. Israel, or to presume that the elected government of Gaza is necessarily an organisation we want to act in solidarity with. Also, supporting the right of one set of people to national self-determination whilst condemning another for it does not fit in with a general distaste for nationstates. We cannot turn the clock back sixty years: what we can do is try to deal sensitively with the issue as it is now, and this will involve fundraising, dialogue, debate, education, making links with Palestinians and Israelis, keeping an open-mind, bringing the same motivations that concern us with the plight of the Palestinians to other situations. If this is not the purpose of CGS: if we are a specifically anti-Zionist movement; if all we are concerned with is opposing Israel and providing material support for Gazans in this time of crisis; then I do not feel comfortable being part of such a movement, as the situation in Israel-Palestine does not stop when the media stops focusing on it, or the death toll isn't as high, or the violence is against Israelis and not Palestinians.

I think this is an important discussion to have, and I'd like to echo Vito's call for everyone to write a personal statement of the values and aims that they are bringing to CGS, so that we can all know precisely who and what we are working with.

Peace, love, understanding, open-mindedness, inclusivity and humanity are the values I am concerned with, and real improvement to the lives of ordinary Palestinians and Israelis in the long-term, in such a way that the solution is just to both sides.

[xylokarabes]

The main question that seems to be at issue is: are we a solidarity/resistance movement, or do we actually want to effect change in the experiences Palestinians and Israelis have?

Talk about a leading question...

[beccy]

The question is the title. What follows is my contribution. All I ask is that you make a statement about what CGS is in your mind, and why. Feel free to disagree with me, just please do engage.

[xylokarabes]

Some occupations were happening around the country, a group of Cambridge activists that was pleasingly trans-sect put one together here, people heard about it and joined in. It lasted for a while but ultimately ended in victory for the university authorities.

GazaSol is a campaign that exists in the aftermath of this. It's filled with a diverse variety of opinion and a tiny minority of its members seem keen on smothering it with excessive introspection and undemocratically insinuated consensus decision making. They do due to caring more about analysis and process than activity and results.

[beccy]

So I have just jumped on a bandwagon that has nothing to do with the actual situation in Israel-Palestine, and can't even be bothered to take the time to think its actions through before taking them? I hope that's not how everyone in the group thinks.

Please start a separate thread if you want to analyse our democratic processes. I'm asking what CGS hopes to achieve in relation to Israel-Palestine, not what gripes you have with how CGS operates or how little Israel-Palestine actually has to do with it. If for you it is part of a wider political context, please elaborate. But don't just dismiss the question.

[xylokarabes]

So I have just jumped on a bandwagon that has nothing to do with the actual situation in Israel-Palestine, and can't even be bothered to take the time to think its actions through before taking them? I hope that's not how everyone in the group thinks.

In methods? Yes, this was a bandwagon jump. I took part in the occupation and I'm not ashamed to admit that. There is no shame in participating in a trend. The cause however, was the massive death of Palestinians, and I don't really see where in my previous post I said otherwise. So far as I can tell everyone in the building cared about the Palestinians, besides perhaps those sectish autonomists, who only seemed to care about being as pretentious as possible. Otherwise, everyone did seem to care. It wasn't one big trot recruitment drive, or any other kind. You'd do well to respond to what I say, not what you imagine I say.

Please start a separate thread if you want to analyse our democratic processes. I'm asking what CGS hopes to achieve in relation to Israel-Palestine, not what gripes you have with how CGS operates or how little Israel-Palestine actually has to do with it. If for you it is part of a wider political context, please elaborate. But don't just dismiss the question.

You really ought to read some David Hume, specifically his writings on the distinction of "Is-Ought". You asked me what CGS is and I told you. If you want me to talk about what I reckon it ought to be then please ask, rather than imagining that the two questions are the same.

[anarchistluke]

Mar 13, 2009 14:13:06 GMT xylokarabes said:

You really ought to read some David Hume, specifically his writings on the distinction of "Is-Ought". You asked me what CGS is and I told you. If you want me to talk about what I reckon it ought to be then please ask, rather than imagining that the two questions are the same.

Actually, a more-than-superficial understanding of the is-ought distinction would inform you that you can move from an is to an ought, the problem is with moving from an is to certain types of ought without a prior ought. Beccy is not asking what we morally ought to do, in fact, the first person to use the word "ought" in this thread was you. Beccy's initial question may have been better phrased as "what do you think the aims of CGS are" or "what are your motivations for being involved in CGS" or "how best can we achieve our aims", or "what do you want CGS to achieve", but none would have been as snappy, concise, or open-ended. This question is open enough to allow people to contribute any appropriate thoughts, as these issues are undoubtedly inter-related. Nevertheless these are all factual questions, not evaluative ones, so Hume is irrelevant.

Please stop being snide and argumentative, it's unneccessary and unpleasant.

[xylokarabes]

AL, she requested the following:

The question is the title. What follows is my contribution. All I ask is that you make a statement about what CGS is in your mind, and why.

Then when I delivered as much alleged that I was not answering her question. If you want to re-phrase her question then do proceed, but don't pretend then that's what she did ask.

[anarchistluke]

I'm not pretending anything, I said "Beccy's initial question may have been better phrased..." and gave some of the things she might have been interested to find out. I then defended the choice of a vague title. I agree, on the other hand, that if you think you've answered the question entirely, then it's a little unfair of Beccy to say that your answer isn't good enough - if, in your view, CGS really is just The Aftermath Of A Thing That Happened, that's a legitimate answer.

[xylokarabes]

Well hence my being prickly. I was given the impression that this was the thread to give our views on what the organisation was, then was told that I should get on topic after doing just that.

[anarchistluke]

Understood, but you may have taken the question more literally and narrowly than was intended.
Peace, goodwill, etc.

[eleftherios]

I agree exactly with what Beccy says here:
"Peace, love, understanding, open-mindedness, inclusivity and humanity are the values I am concerned with, and real improvement to the lives of ordinary Palestinians and Israelis in the long-term, in such a way that the solution is just to both sides. "

However I am adding the following. At this point the Palestinians are in true need of immediate help. This should be our first priority. So, doing the videoconferencing and raising money for them should be our first priority.

Moreover, I want to bring from the e-mail that the occupation of the Law faculty was indirectly an anti-zionist action as the main principle in Zionism is that Israel has the right to exist as a state and Palestine does not have the same right. However, I don't think that we should spend our time worrying about persuading the Zionists that what they believe is wrong or that we should spend our time opposing them or condemn them. Even if all the Zionist cambridge students would like to come to our meetings that would be fine with me.

At the same time condemning Hamas without having enough evidence will only destroy our links with the students in Gaza. Please read carefully last Wesam's e-mail.

However we need to accept that our actions at least so far are indirectly opposing the Israeli government for the massacre in Gaza, directly supporting the ordinary Palestinians and that our efforts are not opposing the Jews in general but rather the contrary. What we do is for the general peace in the area. But because Israel at this moment doesn't have any victims that they are unable to help financially or medically, we concentrate on helping the much poorer, underdeveloped and blocked people of Gaza. Please remember that the biggest university in Gaza is totally demolished and they have problems with poisoning from the phosphorus bombs.

In addition to the above, I want to say that CGS has many members with ideological differences. Some like me are totally independent from any political party or other group, some are members of political parties and some are anarchists. My belief is that everybody in the group want all voices to be heart although some of us might not be so eloquent than others.

I believe that anyone who is a member of any organization should it make it clear to the group. That is because I don't like any generalizations that we are all left or right or rich or poor or anti-x. An anarchist for example cannot be left or right. That is only because I don't want my efforts to be used for anyone who is interested more for his political career rather than anything else.

I am also disappointed that the 7 Jewish children although many of the actors were part of the CGS & the occupation that it was not under the umbrella of the events organized from CGS. At the same time I don't like that the event organized by the socialists although the Union was mostly filled by members of the CGS was not under the umbrella of events organized by the CGS. Events organized by individuals from the own reasons makes me feel insecure about who I am trying to help here.

I have proposed from long time ago two big events. The one is a big fundraising event Rowing for Gaza & the second is actually organizing a trip to Gaza. These haven't been discussed for 3 weeks now. At least lets do the video-conference as soon as possible. Team get together. Many of us will be here between the terms.

Go Team!

Eleftherios

[beccy]

ZIONISM IS NOT INHERENTLY OPPOSED TO THE EXISTENCE OF A PALESTINIAN STATE. Even the far right in Israel now accepts that. PLEASE ACTUALLY READ THIS, Eleftherios. Conditions, Hamas, whatever else is getting in the way of the two-state solution, do not mean that Zionism is opposed to it. Opposing the right of either side to a state right now seems to me highly unpragmatic.

All I'm saying is, let's not work hard to help the people of Gaza right now without a general picture of the overall situation in mind. There are plenty of ways of raising funds without taking political action: CGS took political action, and has to take responsibility for that. It doesn't have to come down to a choice between helping the people of Gaza RIGHT NOW, and trying to have a positive impact on the overall situation.

I shall be posting a summary of a very interesting event I went to this afternoon organised by the Israel Society, later on this weekend, as I have to go away now. Please read it when I do. It will be entitled 'The Borders Workshop'.

I shall also be in Cambridge over the holidays, and happy to keep working both in person and over the forum to bring about all sorts of positive things, the video conference high amongst them. Fundraising is still pending to discuss, too, but last night, and this thread, are not the forum.

Apologies for the confusion re: the question. Allow me to rephrase: Why are you involved in CGS? What is it to you?

[eleftherios]

In response to what Beccy said "ZIONISM IS NOT INHERENTLY OPPOSED TO THE EXISTENCE OF A PALESTINIAN STATE.".

Ha ha ha. That is hilarious. Then why is all this iterative conflict is happening anyway? Probably you don't know what Zionism is please read the link I have posted in Definitions thread and read the Wikipedia site. By saying this you actually calling a lier David Massey & Dan Judelson & Betty Hunter & Jonathan Hoffman that we had as guests to our debate.

However if you know any Zionist who actually opposed the massacre in Gaza and fought against it please send me his name and I will call him a HERO with all my heart.

[eleftherios]

Beccy we have voted long time ago in one of our general meetings that we are not going to condemn Hamas. Your persistence is amazing. As about what is CGS I remind you to go and see the About Us page in the wiki page
www.srcf.ucam.org/gazasol/wiki/index.php?title=About_us
that was written long time ago and after consensus in our general meetings.

I agree with what our website is saying. If you think that this issue is so important we could bring it again up for voting. I am happy with that.

Now when you said that
"All I'm saying is, let's not work hard to help the people of Gaza right now without a general picture of the overall situation in mind."

Could you please give me a time period of when do you think that we will have this overall picture?

In one of your e-mails you are saying that you are primarily a humanist. Then why you do not want to prioritize your humanitarian action and you insist on overall discussion again and again?