On definitions

[xylokarabes]

and as a reply to xylokarabes:
Black is White! Light is Dark! Freedom is Slavery! War is Peace! Ignorance is Strength!
the fact remains that Truisms are truisms regardless of personal belief. You may believe that "dark " means the abundance of light and I may state that dark is the lack or absence of light. regardless of numbers or oratory I would be right and you would be wrong. 2+2 always equals 4. You can call fools gold gold and it looks like it you can convince people that the definition of gold has been altered, the fact remains that what ever you call it it is not gold.

So what is the authority source for determining what is and is not something? Is it you? The majority? The wearer of a sacred hat?

[eleftherios]

Digger1: "Don't give them your real name."

Hey brother it is not police here. This is something we decided all together in our general meeting. Check it please, the minutes are on the wiki site.

www.srcf.ucam.org/gazasol/wiki/index.php?title=General_meeting_2009-03-12

Now if it is so much important for you please bring it back to the general meeting.

And as about the guy who came to our meeting please do not put any labels on him. No labels please. Only he knows what exactly he believes.

Xylokarabes: Eleftherios is my name and it is a greek name. Xylokarabes is not a greek name but as a word it means in greek boats from wood. Anyway, please use your real name. It is very good for the unity of this group to stick with the decisions of our general meetings even when some of us might disagree. If it is so important for you to stay anonymous use the mailing list until the next general meeting. Lets not make Elly's life difficult please.

Luke: The posting from wikipedia was complimentary. But let's not make circles here. I think after your definition and the explanation and after my addition from wikipedia, and the talk by David and Dan we have coined a better understanding of what Zionism is just in case some people want to know more.

All the best.

[beccy]

'Herzl envisioned a Jewish state which combined both a modern Jewish culture with the best of the European heritage. Thus a Palace of Peace would be built in Jerusalem, arbitrating international disputes—but at the same time the Temple would be rebuilt, but on modern principles. He did not envision the Jewish inhabitants of the state being religious, but there is much respect for religion in the public sphere. Many languages are spoken—Hebrew is not the main tongue. Proponents of a Jewish cultural rebirth, such as Ahad Ha'am were critical of Altneuland.

In Altneuland Herzl did not foresee any conflict between Jews and Arabs. One of the main characters in Altneuland is a Haifa engineer, Reshid Bey, who is one of the leaders of the "New Society", is very grateful to his Jewish neighbors for improving the economic condition of Palestine and sees no cause for conflict. All non-Jews have equal rights, and an attempt by a fanatical rabbi to disenfranchise the non-Jewish citizens of their rights fails in the election which is the center of the main political plot of the novel. Herzl also envisioned the future Jewish state to be a "third way" between capitalism and socialism, with a developed welfare program and public ownership of the main natural resources and industry, agriculture and even trade organized on a cooperative basis. He called this mixed economic model "Mutualism", a term derived from French utopian socialist thinking. Women have equal voting rights - as they did have in the Zionist movement from the second Zionist Congress onwards.'

The above is taken from Wikipedia. Theodor Herzl founded Zionism as a mass movement and coherent ideology. He was responding to the pervasiveness of anti-semitism in Europe, not to hatred of Arabs, or religious imperative.

Ideology is an incredibly difficult thing to pin down. Luke is right, in that the definition he gives is all that can be generalised about Zionism on the whole. Sadly, it is looking as if the next government of Israel will oppose the existence of a Palestinian state: this is awful, and something that might not have happened if many voting Israelis weren't feeling so isolated and threatened. As we know from Dan Judelson, David Massey, myself, Alma Smith: Israelis, Zionists and Jews cannot be generalised about any more than any other ideology, religion or ethnicity. There is huge diversity within all three, just as there is huge diversity within Christianity, socialism, and any other religion or ideology.

The mistake you make, Eleftherios, is taking opposition to a Palestinian state as one of the fundamentals of Zionism. Luke's definition, which is analagous to the belief in the resurrection of Christ in Christianity, captures all that is fundamental and unifying about the label 'Zionist'. Within that, there is huge diversity. Palestinian Statehood is analagous to sex before marriage in Christianity, or the nature of the Eucharist: something that is disputed.

Please remember that it was the Israeli government that ordered the IDF to attack Gaza, not world Jewry, not all Zionists, and not all Israelis; and that the people left in Tsderot are only those too poor to leave.

[eleftherios]

Beccy said:

"Please remember that it was the Israeli government that ordered the IDF to attack Gaza, not world Jewry, not all Zionists, and not all Israelis; and that the people left in Tsderot are only those too poor to leave."

Dear Beccy I never said it was not the Israel government or that all Zionists or all Israelis did that. Please do not put words in my mouth that I didn't say. It seems you are making a big effort to call me an antisemitic which I am definitely not. Please stop that.

[beccy]

I'm not attempting to call you anti-semitic: I'm pointing out that your very real sympathy with the plight of the Palestinian people shouldn't make you ignore the situation that ordinary Israelis are in. Your issues with the Israeli government shouldn't lead you to generalise about Jews or Israelis or Zionists; nor should taking issue with one government supercede being honest about the shortcomings of the other. It's not a question of anti-semitism, because my very point is that it's not reasonable to hate people, whether that be an ethnicity, a religion, a country, whatever, without first looking long and hard at the situation they're in, and thinking about who exactly has done what. I'm just asking you to be more discerning in your definitions, and not to make generalisations. I don't think that you hate Jews, or that it is reasonable to hate even the Jews who oppose the existence of a Palestinian state or supported the war on Gaza. I would recommend instead understanding and opposing them, and distinguishing between them and other groups within the Jewish, Israeli and Zionist communities, that's all.

[eleftherios]

Beccy my dear. I haven't made any generalizations. This is only in your mind. I believe though that by helping now the Palestinians at the same time you are also helping the Jews to understand more the situation and be more aware. As far as I know the Jewish peace movements believe and do the same.

[beccy]

You've just generalised, right there. 'The Jews'. Earlier you said we were opposed to 'the Zionists', when you meant the Israeli government, or even past leaders of the Zionist movement. I'm asking you, very politely, to please be very clear about who you're referring to when you refer to a group within the Israeli, Jewish or Zionist communities. And does it occur to you that maybe we can learn from each other, rather than just going out as a light unto the nations and telling people how wrong they are and how right we are? Are you saying that peace is going to have to come in spite of the people of Israel, rather than due to dialogue and understanding that involves them? There's a full spectrum of Jewish peace movements, and they're not there to preach, they're there to add to the full spectrum of Jewish voices that are out there. I can tell you for a fact that there's plenty of debate within Israel, and if that debate is, in the mainstream, more narrow than perhaps we might like, that's because actually living in Israel is very different from hearing about it in the British media.

[xylokarabes]

Mar 15, 2009 22:50:50 GMT eleftherios said:

Xylokarabes is not a greek name but as a word it means in greek boats from wood.

It is a Greek name. It was used by the Byzantine Greeks.

[eleftherios]

Ha ha do you actually write it in this way Xylokarabes? If you want to come closer to greek pronunciation try Xylokaravis. His full name is Μάρκος Β' ο Ξυλοκαράβης. Xylokaravis is not a first name like Patrick it is a surname only. You can have anything as a surname in greek. Xylokaravis was actually a christian orthodox byzantine patriarch. Why do you like him so much?

[xylokarabes]

Well I'd admit that my Greek isn't fantastic.

T'be honest it was just a general love of Byzantine and that being the coolest name which I'd come across. Idk a lot about the historical character.