Violence Against Peaceful Protestors

[beccy]

Why is the Israeli state using violence against peaceful protestors?

[xylokarabes]

Because it can get away with it.

[beccy]

But there are plenty of things I *could* probably get away with that I don't feel any desire or need to do: surely there must be more to it than that?

[xylokarabes]

Because violent means are the most effective in breaking up protests.

[xl269]

a lot of the time the state is not explicitly ordering violence, but the positions of force and power tend to be filled by assholes or just naive people, who abuse/misuse this position outside of the ideological framework of the state. eg. soldiers attacking a village because they have been led to believe that there are terrorists there, or trigger-happy soldiers who just don't like the look of the protesters.

[digger1]

It is not simply because they can get away with it. It is in their interest, they can get away with it and it is effective.

These types of repression are attached to governments states and power structures everywhere not just in Israel. You only need to look back over the last few years in this country to see police brutality dished out on protesters. Greece, South America, China.

Beccy you have to stop seeing a state as a moral entity. It does not have morals, it does not have qualms, it does not have quasi-Christian beliefs about doing unto others as you would have done unto you. It exists to self perpetuate and to benefit the interests of those who control it.
"Getting away with it" is a strange concept, I agree that they attack people because they can get away with it internationally, but even if they couldn't get away with it internationally they would still attack. ( Can anyone think of a single conflict or international intervention based upon what a repressive state has done to "their own" people)
If, on a face to face basis, at that moment in time, they could not get away with it because they were faced with overwhelming numbers of people willing to defend themselves, by either physical or economic methods, only then would they not attack. It doesn't matter if they get a slap on the wrist afterwards by their fellow oppressors.
Again this is not exclusive to Israel but it needs to be said about Israel as it is seen as the "nice" state in the middle east surrounded by all these "mean nasty" states full of "scary brown folk" or "sand niggers" as one eloquent blogger put it in reference to the NYU occupation.

[anarchistluke]

As Sam has already pointed out, every state uses violence, or some other form of intimidation/coercion/force/sanction/etc, against peaceful protestors. Including the UK. Some do it more than others, that's all... You might wonder why Israel fires live ammunition at peaceful protestors, for instance, which many other states don't do, but the question of why they use violence is a bit naive - it seems to assume that it's the only one that does.

[xylokarabes]

Digger1 - I just took it for a given that any state which could get away with it would use force to disperse a protest that threatened it.

[beccy]

I was mainly just trying to draw out the fact that the Israeli state isn't unique in this respect.

So is the argument that these people are threatening the security of the people of Israel and need to be stopped at all costs a load of nonsense then? When the state talks about the good of the people, does it really mean the good of those in power within the state?

(By the way, I'm being disingenuous, above. I'm aware that our wonderful comrades at Anarchists Against the Wall etc aren't a security threat by any stretch of the imagination. My point is, though, that when you challenge these things in non-radical Israeli circles, there's a lot more faith that the government only does what's necessary for the greater good, or at least a sense that not being in the position of responsibility that the government's in, you're not in a position to challenge their decisions). Hence, rather than challenging Zionism or the Israeli government in isolation, a better first step might be to demonstrate why the people in power more generally shouldn't be trusted?)

[anarchistluke]

In answer to your first question - Yes.
In answer to your second question - Yes.

If you speak to anyone outside of radical circles in any country, you're likely to get the response that the government must just be doing what they think is necessary to keep peace, law+order, etc. People are just gullible. I don't know how to challenge that view, though I wish I did.

[eddm]

All states use violence against demonstrators. For historical reasons Israel is a highly militarised state. States exist to protect the interests of a ruling class and, when directly challenged, that class will use the full force of the state to defend itself. See the 1984 miners strike in Britain for an obvious recent example, or last year's uprising in Greece.

Unfortunately the creeping belief amongst some that Arab Israelis constitute a sort of "5th column" probably means that demonstrations lie the one in Tel Aviv against the gaza war will be treated more harshly in the near future.

I daresay the Israeli government doesnt regard any such protest as peaceful, but rather as an extension of their constant war with the Palestinians and with their Arab neighbours.